Voir la version complète : DIR This is Cavalry Corps ... interested to join the debate
Hello,
Bon Jour
This is cvalry Corps builder of DIR . I saw there has been some debate on my secenario here ( great ) , much of it I cannot read , however there must be some interesting questions etc .
If you have any questions for me I will be glad to anser them but it will have to be in English I am afraid .
Please do remember the scenario is hypothetical ( but not fantasy ) . However ,I have modified the oob and the pdt to better reflect ranged fire and AT guns in a better way than exists now. There are some hypothetical units but they could have existed .
The main purpose was to give a feel of late Summer / Autumn in Russia 43 but with no hindsight ( but a slightly more flexible German side ( as the Army have contriol ... as per the notes with the game ) , the K44 map is pretty interesting map . There are a few house rules to add some chrome and strategy decsions for the Axis reserve .
The game is big there is a lot of clicking for the Russian , loads of choices ( some will lead to disaster ) for both sides . However as I have my own house rules for victory a decent campaign game can be had after playing 60 turns .
Anyway fire away good or bad ....
Merci and Regards
Michael Smith
Cavalry Corps
Well actually it's not really a debate but rather an AAR about the campaign.
There's just one thing which seem to bother the russian player: As in Kursk the T-34 have a to low hard value to really harm any german tanks.
A common default to all the serie it seems.
For the others details well it seems that anything's ok. At least for now
Dear Cavalry corps,
Thank you to have imagine this scenario which looks great.
We have organised a game between 2 teams of 3 players each. The size of the scenario seems perfect for a multiplayer game. We have played 2 turns with V3 but we start again now with V4.
I think that you have put all the ingredients to make a very interesting game. The german situation is probably very close from the reality during fall 1943.
Personnaly I am in charge of the 8th german army. A very risky position !
Concerning the conditions of victory, if my understanding is correct, the germans, when they decide to evacuate by air their QGs, do they give up for ever a decisive victory ? Can you confirm this interpretation ?
Well actually it's not really a debate but rather an AAR about the campaign.
There's just one thing which seem to bother the russian player: As in Kursk the T-34 have a to low hard value to really harm any german tanks.
A common default to all the serie it seems.
For the others details well it seems that anything's ok. At least for now
Tyrex,
Thanks for the point on the T34 good question..
I can tell you the armour ratings were long considered . In fact in the end most ratings were unchanged from the original design ...they have got it about right . AT guns however are greatly improved over the original.
First the offensive . I looked at various sources for these values it is very clear that the T34 had pretty good killing capability at less than 500m , as do a lot of guns and probably justifies more than 11 . Most armoured combats however are assumed to take place at 700 to perhaps 1500m ( 1 or 2 hex in PZC ) at these ranges this gun is tailing off very much but the German guns penetration capabilities stay pretty high. That is why in this game I modified the two hex range to 1/2 value not 1/3 . The German tanks are now abstractly shown to be far superior at ranged combat but the T34 will easily still kill the MK 4 at one hex remember its firing at only 14 defence .
Defence . Again I looked at several sources , defence is tricky as many different formulations can be used . The T34 is a well armoured tank better than the MK4 for sure 20 as opposed to 14 in the game . The T34 however is inferior to the Panther 22 and Tiger 25 as we all know , the T34 is pretty good at infantry assault and shooting up infantry ( which it was ) .
Now here is the best bit about the T34 that most players overlook to some extent , the speed , the average xc speed is around 25mph ...incredible , this means the T34 can pretty much elect to close fast fire and retire , as they did in real life ..close in very fast . However it must still face the ranged fire of coarse .
The really deadly thing is the speed get a breakthrough and pile the T34 through and you are on the way to victory . The Russians hardy ever employed the armour in the first wave of attack that was always pretty much infantry assault to get a breakthrough . The reason why the T34 has to face the axis tanks is because the Axis tanks must be where the T34 units are to prevent them racing through the lines .
Morale , right on from the beginning the morale ( and I include training , leadership , tactics , radio control and command and control in morale ) of the Germans is always basicaly better so even on inferior equipment like the MK3 and early MK 4 they still gain the advantage . However they will find themselves fatigued and unable to refit and rest most of the time which sets aside this advantage , esp when employed as companies etc.
Hope this is of interest , its only my views . I would conclude do not judge just by one rating. I would exchange the MK4 for the T34 if I was the Germans .
Regards
Michael
I have seen 2 minor problems but perhaps they are not.
The group of Stug 3/226 located at the start in hex 128,23 is surrounded by marshes. So this unit is lost since the beginning. Is it a mistake or not ?
The unit of heavy weapons 13/GR 199 located in 143,26 looks like a mortar unit but has 8 guns. Is it right ?
Dear Cavalry corps,
Thank you to have imagine this scenario which looks great.
We have organised a game between 2 teams of 3 players each. The size of the scenario seems perfect for a multiplayer game. We have played 2 turns with V3 but we start again now with V4.
I think that you have put all the ingredients to make a very interesting game. The german situation is probably very close from the reality during fall 1943.
Personnaly I am in charge of the 8th german army. A very risky position !
Concerning the conditions of victory, if my understanding is correct, the germans, when they decide to evacuate by air their QGs, do they give up for ever a decisive victory ? Can you confirm this interpretation ?
Mr Debrand ,
I did consider that some may like a multi player for this and yes its quite suitable .
I added some chrome type rules one was to consider the fact that the Germans could attempt airlift key Officers and others out of an 8TH Army pocket . You are correct if the Germans do this the give up a possible decisive but in return loss of the 8A HQ and Corps HQ of the 8th Army will not perhaps give a decisive to the Soviets.Remember to do this the 8TH A HQ has to move to the Airfield.
I am pleased you sarted again with V4 its so much improved , this was my first scenario I have worked on v1 and 2 did not even make consideration to be put forward . In V3 I found a lot of oob errors and also the Germans needed to be better. To be honest I also found the confidence to modify units to bring them into line with my historical knowledge ( gaming for 20 years , student of the st Front for only slightly less ) .
You will see the 8A sector has been improved a lot . As the 8A player you can make a lot of decisions esp about the infantry which will be critical later . I added some unis that would have been called up to fight in that situation like River boat crews , some Luftwaffe security and training units , plus there are some rear guard units retiring from the 1UF . Likewise the Russians in the North a very strong but must choose carefully where and when to attack .
As regards the general feel I am glad it feels like fall 43 , above all that was the main intention . To provide a hypothetical but realistic battle set in that time . In the fall of 43 infantry was getting shorter but the Panzers though depleted from Kursk were still formidable . The Russian are growing in capability but lack logistics and coordination for the moment .
I hope you really enjoy your game I will be very pleased if you send me an occasional turn for later development purposes . michael.haydn@tiscali.co.uk
As regards the future for this game , I found one or two minor oob mistakes , one bit of missing art ( which I thought I had added ) but they are not much . I asked HPS if they would make ferries applicable to one hex rivers as I wanted a chance for 8A to evacuate over the river in that way , so far that is not possible . I will consider all future patches for k44 and if any amendment needs to be made it will be considered .
Many ideas and improvements to this game were added alongside reading The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer .
Sorry for any typos
Kind Regards
Michael
hello cav'
here is moïse as " lubric viper " :lol: my american is not very good like a barbarian language :oops: . congratulation for these enormous project of DIR. i am in the second DIR party, the chief of the 1° ukrainian front. we are begining but globally it is ok. i think there is an continue error on hard killing of T34. On kourks the ratio is for M43 a 12/1 and 3 months later , the ratio decrase to 11/2 why ?
ok the optic, team and killing capacities of the T34 is bad but really your ratio is too low. american conceptor have a psychological conflict with T34 (private joke :D ). i think the good ratio is around 14/1 ou 15/1 but it is a subjective appreciation.
we are obliged to emply T34 in overrun attack with minimal balance of 5 against 1. strictely no result with direct fire.
27° infantry army have a enormous units of katioucha with 58 guns. is it good ??
have a good day.
momo :wink:
Moise, Cav is actually from the UK, not American I am sad to say :) . So he uses the Queen's English rather than American like me :P . But he does excellent work anyway, even if not American. Désolé, just kidding, Michael.
Et non tous les Américains évaluent le T-34 très mal. Although I don't know the private joke about it, but I do know what you are saying about the ratings. Le Sherman dans Korsun étant un exemple parfait.
Bonsoir
Rick
I confirm the overkill power of the Sherman in every PzC. Sometime this tank (one of the worse during the years late 43-44-45) is better than T-34, Pz IV or KV-85. It equals en some ratings the Panther himself.
Must be a dream
In fact the only good rating I saw for this tank was in Middle East in his israelian modified version. So I believe all Sherman in the war were of such version :lol:
Oh, I don't know if the Sherman is overrated in any, although possibly. For Korsun, I believe the T-34 is underrated rather than the Sherman is overrated, but then the PzKwIV is way overrated in Korsun also, in my opinion. In the Bulge, I think the tanks are right where they should be - the PzKwIV is slightly better than the Sherman there. Market Garden they overall look good except possibly the British tank units that included both the basic and Firefly Shermans, which look almost like pure Fireflies maybe. But I didn't look at all the games with Shermans.
But the Sherman had heavy armor, just not sloped as well as the T-34, an average gun in the 75 but with some very good mechanisms to get it on target, okay or even good optics.
Anyway, sorry to take over the thread with this, I am sure there are some old threads here on this already.
Rick
Thanks again for the interestingcomments . Deciding the stats for weapons is never going to be easy in general I would defend my points as above . In all honesty I did not pay too much attention to changing the Shermans in K44 . Ricky is quite right they have heavy armour , as much as any tank in the front but rmember the were fueled with petrol in my opinion their defensive value could be cut 30 % + for that alone . Howver in my game I left it pretty uch as it is coonsidering how much AT guns have been improved .
As regards the hard attack my comments remain as above though the T34 could be 14 or 15 at one hex I agree the penetration of the gun drops off so much it cannot justify it but it still has a cracking defence at 20 .
In DIR I decided to change some values to get an abtract feel and I dio not think the game should be looked at as a table of numbers. I have for some time been thinking of adding ( for chrome ) say wittman and maybe a Russian ace and in fact I am going to add two or three leaders in the next game . How can you simulate skill of that level there is only one way change the numbers , I was thinking of a Wittman Tiger Troop at 100 hard attack and around 40 defence .
Moise said he decideded to assault wiyth the T34 at 5 to one advantage or so . Well that's my understand of how the T34 was handled . Its not that some disadvantage is making you do that , its what they did . However I found at one hex the T34 kills the PZ4 at an accurate level .
The most important change I made was making it 11/1 instead of 11/2 . 11/2 is better than about 14/1 in my opinion taking ito account the ranged combat modifier at 1/2 instead of 1/3 .As I sad before , I still feel the T34 even as anmended is worth more than the PZ4 with the 24/2 unles the A morale is still in place .
Another thing to consider is that most German tanks are fighting as companies most of the time the effect on their morale for lossses and fatigue is more than the Russians esp if they risk an assault .
Remember also the morale improves the firing and does not help the defence . 20% I think for B so there are quite a lot of T34 in DIR and K44 at B morale .
I think the debate on the T34 Hard attack value is interesting but if it were 12 or 13 I do not think you will see much effect . I am surprised there is not one comment on the AT guns , everyone seems more than happy with that and that was the most radical change .68/2 on the 88 and the Russian 76 at 16/2 ( from 11/1 ) with improved morale for many Soviet AT gun units again these modifications are abstractions to produce an effect .
As has been said before and I hope you feel no need to do it , you and another player could alter the ratings for your own private game I would be happy to see the result . However after playing the game I really hope you have had an introduction to the Eastern Front on a grand scale not seen before and will not feel the need to do so .
Thanks for the comments
Michael
Sorry for all the typos in that post
MIchael :oops:
thanks a lot , Michael for your historical point of view and explication.
yes i have saw modification on AT; it's better.
Moise ,
Thats fine , you maybe interested to know I am on turn 9 of a game as the Axis the 6TH PZ Regt 3rd Pz has decided to give battle , the T34 is killing the PZ4 almost one for one and also killing the Panther as well to the point I am having to withdraw the units from being eliminated . Of coarse the Russian are loosing T34 as well but he can afford to .
I also found myself avoiding the Russian AT guns which my opponent is moving up the moment I decide to stay in a hex too long . In K44 I would have looked to disrupt those units and quickly kill 20 guns for the VP which is silly . Here the morale of some of those units could be B and also I stand a chance of losing casualties as well not to mention the better defensive values.
I find it all feels more realistic .
I always value input and in fact in my new game I am having a very close look at all the armour .
Regards
Michael
hello Michael,
you indicated have killing pzIV by T34, with overrun or direct fire ?
hello Michael,
you indicated have killing pzIV by T34, with overrun or direct fire ?
Sorry for delay in reply ...
At the moment its by direct fire although a large T34 unit could assault a PZ1V ( at X strength .. less than 10 and the T34 has say 20 + ) unit I am sure . I would however say I have not used this tactic but I will always assault with infantry any armour which is not stacked with infantry.
CC
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