Voir la version complète : New Hypothetical Game ; Red Blood White Snow for K43
Here it is hundreds of hours of clicking later :shock: .
Red Blood White Snow
Summary of the Game
The game is a scenario designed for Kursk 43. The time period is November 1942 to Jan 1943. I have used units from many games ( and some are hypothetical ) but primarily R42 and K42
I wanted the feel of a quite sector erupting under the fury of a desperate Russian counter offensive. The control of Kursk will be the deciding factor the Russians must isolate and destroy its defence to ensure victory. The Germans must stay on the map and make a counter offensive of sorts to relieve the same in December / January.
There are other distractions and several strategy options for both sides.
Historical Background to the Scenario
Case Blue never happened instead the Germans made a massive effort against Leningrad and Moscow, Leningrad falls in October and by mid November the Germans are dug in the suburbs of Moscow , the Kremin is in ruins and the fall of Moscow seems inevitable .
Stalin knowing he cannot break the Moscow offensive takes a desperate gamble and looks for a counter offensive to isolate several German Divisions around Kursk .Perhaps then moving up on Moscow from the South West.
In early November the weather in the Kursk sector is very bad and the Soviets carefully make the build up. V. Paulus (against advice) is considering returning some units to Germany for refit and rest. In Kursk life is quite ,good restaurants are reopening and all German troops in the sector look forward to leave there. Several German Divisions are preparing to leave for Germany as the offensive opens. V. Paulus receives a call … you will remain in place …await further instructions.
Important notes on art for the game as well as sound
Please note you need to download Stewart Atkinson’s excellent art mod for R42 into your Kursk 43 art folders (I do not think it will change any of the existing K43 Summer style art). Any extra art (and Nation folders) will come with the game file zip.
You should also copy and paste the 4 snow media files from say the R42 media folder to the same media folder in K43 if you want the chilling winds and the sound of winter storms (which I recommend)!
The game is pretty much ready , I have done a lot of testing but to balance things up I will need feedback from players . I found with DIR I made several key amendments before getting to V4 . DIR has some drawbacks but it is now I feel as balanced as it can be .I intended DIR to be a rolling confused battle esp for the Russians this one is more fixed piece .
Here are a couple of further new features ...
I have depicted two famous tank commanders in the game Samokhin Konstantin and Michael Wittman giving there units abstracted fire and some better defensive capability. Its abstracted ignore the values given, they really do play quite well.
If you read up about how some of these men performed in action you will understand only an abstracted solution will do. If players feel it’s a step too far you can agree to move the units away from the action and leave them there.
Here is the optional house rule for the Manstein counter ...
2.Manstein “gets down to business”; I have included a counter for Manstein. Manstein often commanded and attended attacks at Regimental level. This is abstracted in giving him a unit with fire and movement capability. There are restrictions as to when his abstracted capability “firing “in game turns may be used. First he must be stacked with a regimental (or Divisional) HQ from a unit attached to 3rd PZC. That Regimental HQ unit must be stacked with at least two companies with fire capability OF THE TYPE TO BE USED. So for him to use his hard attack value (tactical command) the units firing (both) must have a hard attack value that can be used at one hex range. If players do not like what I have done then move him to the map edge and leave him there!!
OK any comments ?
Regards
Michael
OK any comments ?
Just to get excited, crowded...
My woolen balaclava and my padded reversible winter tunic are ready...
cav excellent , you have a judicioux history idea.
this evening i go refreshing my memory on this part of the combat in my perso book. :wink:
Pretator
01/10/2004, 01h19
Y a quelqu'un qui peut résumer l'article de Cav en bon frenchie car y a des trucs que j'ai pas pigé ds son article .
Il s'agit d'une offensive hypothétique de l'armée russe dans le secteur de Koursk où les Allemands doivent tenir absolument contre une marée rouge. L'action a lieu pendant l'hiver 42-43 dans un secteur où les Allemands se croient au calme à tel point qu'ils sont en train de renvoyer des divisions en Allemagne poutr les reposer. Ils ont quelques fire brigades dont une commandée par Wittmann. Manstein peut prendre aussi la tête d'un régiment pour contre-attaquer.
Il y aussi un as russe de l'arme blindée.
super , à un moment j'ai cru que c'était le volet nord de l'opération " blau " avec les russes qui retraite jusqu'à Vorojnev :?
Le scénario sera en ligne ce soir ou demain matin.
Pour le faire fonctionner il faudra reprendre le weather.dat de Rzhev '42 et le placer dans le dossier de Kursk'43.
Afin d'éviter les interférences avec l'original de Kursk, vous pouvez faire un copier coller du répertoire de Kursk (en enlevant les scénarios et les cartes) en le nommant differemment.
Je crois que c'est la meilleure solution.
Le jeu fonctionnera ainsi parfaitement.
Pretator
02/10/2004, 06h36
Je piaffe d'impatience devant ma bécane en attendant la mise en ligne du scénar de Cav . Ce soir je le teste .
L'arrivée de gros scénar inédit est un véritable plaisir . Il faut remercier les concepteurs et producteurs de ce site : scénars monster , OOB , mods , c'est généralement du super boulot .
Le scénario n'est pas encore en ligne.
Le contexte stratégique hypothétique est le suivant:
Le plan bleu pendant l'été 1942 n'a pas été mis en oeuvre. Les Allemands ont préféré se concentrer sur la prise de Leningrad qui est tombée. Les Allemands sont aussi dans la banlieue de Moscou. Staline joue son va-tout et lance une gigantesque offensive dans la région de Koursk pour tenter de desserrer l'étau. Nous sommes en novembre 1942. La météo est épouvantable. Les Allemands sont complétement surpris par cette offensive. Von Paulus commandant la 6eme armée était en train de renvoyer en Allemagne des divisions pour les reposer et les reconstituer.
Pour arrêter l'offensive des groupes adhoc sont disponibles avec des cracks: le groupe Wittmann et le groupe Manstein avec des régles particuliéres. Pour combattre le groupe Manstein doit être empilé au minimum avec 2 compagnies possédant une valeur en "hard value"et un QG régimentaire appartenant au 3eme panzer Korps.
En face un as de l'arme blindée soviétique: Samokhin Konstantin
Le théme du jeu est la formation d'une poche encerclant la 6eme armée dans la région de Koursk. Les Russes doivent absolument s'emparer de la ville pour gagner la partie.
Tout ceci a l'air trés alléchant.
Wait and see
Cav ne m'a pas encore envoyé le fichier...
Hi,
The files have now been sent to Laurent. It will be best for anyone who wants it to download it from the site the file is 2.3 meg and I only have ISDN line and its so slow ...
Laurent ,
Please make sure you use the second set I sent you as there was a minor error with the weather file ( one or two days were dated 42 when they should have been 43 ) .
Michael
Voilà, la version Beta est en ligne :
http://laurentlavail.free.fr/Scenarios/Red_Blood_White_Snow_V1.zip
Oubliez ce que je vous ai dit à propos du Weather dat, j'avais mal lu le mail de cav. Il fautjuste reprendre le .wav de R'42 permettant de simuler le "storm".
Bon Starlancer, tu fais un mod ? :lol:
Second set is online ?
Thats the good one ?
There is many problems with symbol.bmp.
i'm trying to fix it. But its hard
Whate nationality names do you use for Guards and SS ?
Russian Guard is fixed... but i cant fix Luftwaffe. :?
Pretator
02/10/2004, 20h23
Je cherche un .wav dans mes fichiers de R42 mais je trouve pas
Bon le fichier dont parle Cav est un fichier correspondant au storm.
je suis désolé de ne pouvoir t'aider Pretat, mais jen'ai R'42 sur le PC que j'utilise actuellement. Je ne peux donc te donner son nom exact.
Il y a de plus un bug dans l'OB qui empêche d'affiher correctement certaines unité. Cav devra le corriger.
Enfin bon, on peut tout de même avoir une vision d'ensemble du champ de bataille. :)
Tortue Agile
02/10/2004, 20h51
C'est peut etre le fichier snow2 ?
La représentation de la plupart des unités a disparu ce qui est embêtant. Pour le fichier storm dont vous parlez ce n'est pas trés important. Il sagit du fichier son simulant le bruit de la tempête qu'il faut importer de Rzhev. La carte pour le moment donne une impression de situation à la Rzhev avec des fortifications allemandes dures à craquer.
J'attend la V2 pour y voir plus clair.
J'ai corrigé les problèmes.
Il manque quelques .bmp pour le supply.
Vous pouvez commencer à tester le jeu et vous faire une idée :
http://laurentlavail.free.fr/Scenarios/Red_Blood_and_White_Snow.zip
Just to say this once more clearly
1. Download the S. Atkinson excellent R42 mod to your K43 art folders
( I have included the extra art in the zip including new nationality folders which are stand alones of coarse ) . There are no problems with any missing units on my PC.
2. Copy the snow WAV files from R42 there are 3 or 4 and put them in your media file of K43. This is not needed but its much better with them .
3. Replace the existing weather file with my new one, none of the original K43 weather is modified .
Cav
Dear Cav,
I have just had a look on the situation of your new scenario on the Kursk's map. I was surprised to see a Rzhev's situation instead of Stalingrad's situation. I explain what I mean. In Rzhev the german army is well established behind heavy fortifications. It's about the same situation in your scenario. I am afraid it will give a rather static position without possibility of great mouvements. In a Stalingrad's situation the hungarian, italian and rumanian are on the front line in semi heavy fortifications. Their weapons specially the antitank guns are unable to fight with T 34. Mobile reserves with tank divisions are scarce and the tanks are old modeles with a lot of mecanical problems. A good german division is supposed to boost the line front but it's not sufficient due to the very big distance . It was more and less the situation in the Don's bridgeheads north of Stalingrad.
In this conditions the red army after a intense artillery preparation with rockets launchers is able to open a huge gap in the front line. To stop the soviet army only small groups of rear units are able to fight in a first step. After a few days the 48th german tank corps under Balck's command is arriving with a crack panzer division ( 11eme panzer ) , a luftwaffe division of very poor quality and a elite infantry division. They finally stop a full tank army by destroying a complete tank corps and stabilize the front line. It's give time to Manstein to bring from Caucasus the 57eme panzer Korps reinforced also with units arriving from France and to launch a counteroffensive toward Stalingrad by gaining bridgeheads on important rivers. What do you think of such a scenario depicting the same situation but using the Kursk's map ? The victory conditions could be for the russian to exit units on the eastern part of the map and for the german on the east with also points to collect for geographical objectives on the map itself.
Your idea is not unreasonable its just time to do it I spent at least 200 hours on this scenario .
I can assure you my game will not be static In my scenario Kursk will be cut off with about 5 German divisions in the pocket no problem .
Consider the subtle points which are not covered in the manual ...this game is with explicit supply, here are some big supply issues you may not have considered but very much applicable .
How much axis supply is on the map ( enough for few days ) ?
How much of it is mobile ( almost none ) ?
How much supply will they receive ( not enough to do everything before late Dec ) ?
The Germans are in for a tough time in this unlike in R42 ....
I never planned another R42
So how about you take the axis and I take the Russians and we can try it out :wink: Do you also belong to the Blitz ladder?
BTW is everything displaying ok in the game on your PC ?
iy's a big big mega big works. congratulations :D I thinl it'a great to play il after have beaking the front the play must be plenty of mouvement. :wink:
the storm is long ? :?
Moise,
The storm is 80% on the second day and I think 15% on the third .
In my test play no storm happened at all a couple of times .
It is difficult to say who benefits from the storm but I feel the weather in general helps the Russians for the first two days .
I am glad you can see the danger for the Germans that's the really nice thing about hypothetical games ...in some wayds these are for real Generals . I have some many conflicting ideas posed to me on DIR and so many big mistakes made by hasty Russian and Germans . This game is no exception and I thought long and hard about it The only thing that may need some work are the victory conditions.
I like to see conflicting ideas on this one , it means I am making a good job
Michael
Did you download it ok is it complete ????
M
no problem of the download ? the mods is it you ? great
it's incredible it's enormous :shock: . i'm surprise that german historicaly have so many division on these front.
with the creative Battle of Gazala / mai 42 (pete common ?), you are I think the best free lance anglo saxon conceptor. good choice of what if and just appréciation of unit and armement. what's are your source ??? :roll:
what a pity thats marquo on Karkhov 43 FSR made plenty of mistake, Tyrex prepare a " bombs " with skachok :wink:
me too i made my own scénario but i m a really poor informaticien.
No the mods are not mine but a mixture mainly they are the excellent Mods by S Atkinson for R42 .
If you look a the manual you will see most of the units are from R42 and K42 , some from K43 , K44 and S43 (amended) and some are hypothetical . I have studied the Eastern front for many years . One book that has inspired me very much is The Forgotten soldier by Guy Sajer. I esp used his terrible descriptions of the battles with the partisans to beef them right up . In RBWS they are a menace and can control part of the map ( esp roads and routes used by the axis supply ...oh dear another strategy tip given away :oops: ) . In DIR the units are getting bigger and bigger and require lots of German units to hunt them down .
If it looks like winter 42 that could have been then I will have succeeded . The historical setting is credible and Leningrad much closer than Stalingrad as a reasonable objective.
Its true that the infantry densisty is quite high in this game , this would be the last year it would be so high and remember in my game R42 and Stalingrad have not happened. In addition the Germans still have fairly reliable Rumanians and some Italians , using these units in the line makes the line shorter and stronger ( brittle ?) , provided they can be relied upon.
By DIR countless German infantry have been expended in futile campaigns that's why in that game the infantry divisions are very stretched ( and if you do not salvage the infantry of 8A you will loose ...another tip :oops: , that's how it was getting by fall 43 . However by that time the good mobile units could be considered very tough indeed, tougher than the units in RBWS ( esp being able to tackle the T34 ) , though with not so much infantry .
In DIR GD and 24th PZ are the biggest Rock Roll killing machine combination in any PZC game .
In the next game we will put the Germans on a late 44 offensive and bring out the heavy armour for both sides !!
I hope you have someone to try the game with
Remember to copy the sound files from R42 !!!
Sorry for any typos
Michael
yes GD and 24 Pz , it will be very rock 'n roll :? aie aie
i pilot the first front against prévot, warson and michel and we must find with prétat and yves .. a strategy of dispersion for these monster association :D :cry:
i ve a big passion for east front.
give an eye on comparative aircraft combat for UV on the east front (topic). I begin with sturmovik and actually the " air flying tank " is a joke for german véhicules just good to kill a cow in the russian country :lol:
in DIR only you have a objective defense UV
9 for soft ok
but i want an urgence retrofit hard killing around 18 for Il2M3 and 12 for Il2.
have you kill one just one panzer in kurks with sturmovik and not in mouvement mode.
fairly reliable Rumanians and some Italians
And what about the others Axe Allies? There was an entire army of hungarian troops in this sector near Voronezh (II Army which will be torn to pieces during the winter offensive of 1942).
And the Slovak divisions? well they were a bit northern than that (more or less around Rzehv). But Rumanians were southern too (near the Black Sea shore and Sevastopol)
Your scenario could have been a great occasion to put in scene those to often forgotten allies. There were also some Spanish but they were fighting near Leningrad
Tyrex,
Good points , in fact there are quite a lot of allied troops on the map already.It is quite important not to let the density of infantry get unrealistic . However, I am interested in adding some late arriving further arrivals for later in the game if we need a versin 2 . In DIR it was necessary to add a fair number of Axis in the revisions. Although my games are 300 turns I expect most of them to be resolved by 150 .
Would you have an approximate oob for any of these units ?
If so post it here or send it to me .
Michael
I've some information upon the slovakian troops. But there's just one division. And none of documentation are online
For the hungarian I've just informations upon one armored division and one light infantry division (which appears in Skachok). They are on my Zvesdia's .oob file
So for slovakian I need some time to give you any information. For the Hungarian's one I'll send you the OoB file. But beware all terms are in hungarn. So don't be surprized if you see some Mernokar instead of Engineer :lol: The Hungarian troops are in the Heeres-Gruppe B part of the 2. Armee and VII. Armee Korps
The firts one represent the Armored division. The second one is a light infantery division. I've no indication on "normal" infantry division as far sorry
Pretator
07/10/2004, 02h45
Début de test :
Quelques remarques tt d'abord : J'ai voulu regarder l'oob dans le PCoob mais le fichier est altéré car il n'y a presque rien . Par contre en ouvrant directement le fichier excel ça parait bon . Pour tester , vu le monstre , je me sers de l'IA sur certains secteurs ou pour faire monter les renforts . Avec l'explicit l'IA plante sur les camions de supply , manifestement elle sait pas quoi en faire . Par contre avec le virtual supply l'IA carbure à fond . Je ne joue directement que 3 secteurs d'attaque pour tester les défenses .
Secteur de Chizhovka : les 3ème tank army et 22ème armée russes dans le secteur des roumains au nord de Kursk . C'est une grande marée qui s'abat sur les pauvres roumains . 11ème tour le front est sérieusement enfoncé , la percée devrait être effective en fin de journée avec tous les chars de la 3ème pour l'exploiter .
Au sud de la ville face à Sarachin la 5ème Shock army et la 20ème armée mettent une grosse préssion sur la 76 ème ID qui sans renforts craquerait rapidement .
Plus à l'est la 30ème armée fait subir le même sort à la 52ème ID qui doit elle aussi impérativement recevoir des renforts pour tenir . Sur les deux derniers secteurs les all peuvent ramener quelques renforts ( mais pas trop) . Par contre au nord c'est pas tout de suite le cas et c'est là que la 1er percée va se faire en 20 tours .
Après ça risque d'être très différent ...
Bref je pense que les russes peuvent percer à plusieurs endroits en 2 ou 3 jours . Ca sera la nécéssaire phase statique . Mais pas de risques à mon sens que le front ce fige et nous fasse un R42 bis .
A suivre
Ce soir je mettrai un mod en ligne.
Pretat, tu as bien utilisé l'éditeur d'OB (oob.exe) pour ouvrir le fichier OB ?
Pretator
07/10/2004, 07h49
Ouais ouais et quand je tape dans le fichier .oob ça m'affiche que le début de l'oob all et un beau "error reading file "
Ca doit être parce qu'il te manque un dossier nationalité.
Cav a fait dans le "complexe". Je m'explique.
Voici à quelles nationalités (dans le jeu) correspondent les dossiers nationalités.
Soit à gauche, la nationalité dans le jeu, à droite, le dossier dans le répertoire de jeu :
Allemand : German
SS : Garman-SS
Russe : Russian
Garde : Russian-Guards
Hongrois : Hungarian
Luftwaffe : Italian
Italiens : Iraqi (sic !)
L'unité Von der Heydte et les unités de sécurité de la Luftwaffe : Luftwaffe
Si il te manque un de ces dossiers, c'est de là que vient le bug. Tu dois aussi avoir des bugs graphiques.
Ce soir, j'espère que ce sera corrigé... si j'ai le temps. :roll:
Laurent,
Is it ok to download now as I am sending many people to your link .
I tried it again but it does not seem to connect
L'unité Von der Heydte et les unités de sécurité de la Luftwaffe : Luftwaffe
...should these units not be in the Italian folder ( or is it as it is because of the oob issue you mentioned ...do you want me to correct the oob ).
Gosh what a tangled web I made with this ...
Regards
Michael
There is different SdKfz 2 cm Flak with differents Units Valors... Will it be corrected ?
Michael
Where can I send you the informations upon Hungarian and Slovakian unites?
There is different SdKfz 2 cm Flak with differents Units Valors... Will it be corrected ?
Well spotted I will put it on the list . At least its faily minor .
Michael
Michael
Where can I send you the informations upon Hungarian and Slovakian unites?
Please send them to michael.haydn@tiscali.co.uk
Thanks
Michael
La version 2 est disponible sur "the Blitz"
La V2 sera bientôt sur CF mais avec un OB corrigé et les mods nécessaires.
Elle ne sera pas compatible avec la version US... à moins que vous préfériez jouer avec OB bordélique et avec des unités sans images. :rolleyes:
On peut télécharger les mods correspondants dans la partie mods de "the Blitz". Attention il faut les chercher un peu.
le scénario est opérationnel avec des mods pour chacune des unités. C'est un mod curieux que je n'aime pas vraiment mais on doit s'y faire à la longue. Paradoxalement les unités rares sont mieux décrites que les unités d'infanterie courantes. La DCA est une horreur.
tu peux mettre un ou 2 exemples pour qu'on voit ça ?
merci
merci
mais ça a du foirer , je vois rien :comprendpas:
Oui en fait le serveur n'accepte pas le format des fichiers des mods des unités.
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