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Voir la version complète : AE: efficacité des escortes dans les convois



Micke
31/03/2010, 18h22
Pour illustrer le débat lancé dans
http://www.campaigns-france.org/showthread.php?5196-gregamoto-vs-quot-Dirty-quot-Harry-cyclone-sur-le-Pacifique/page2


et afin de ne pas polluer l'AAR de Johnny j'ouvre ce nouveau sujet:


Quelques rapports de combats tirés de mes parties montrent que les escortes intégrées aux convois protègent vraiment les cargos et transports de troupes. Les cas rapportés par Rominet sont des contre exemples de ceux çi car dans les exemples qu’il cite, comme le fait remarquer Thesix, les navires coulés ne disposaient pas de véritable escorte.

1<SUP>er</SUP> exemple:

Forte escorte d’un convoi de débarquement où les croiseurs et les destroyers sont intégrés au convoi.
U malheureux destroyer attaque le convoi: il se retire très endommagé.
 
 
 
Night Time Surface Combat, near Wake Island at 136,98, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Katori
CL Kashima
CM Tokiwa
CM Okinoshima
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
CL Yubari
DD Mutsuki
DD Kisaragi
DD Yayoi
DD Mochizuki
DD Hayate
DD Asanagi
DD Yunagi
PB Chiyo Maru #4
PB Choko Maru #2
PB Fukui Maru
PB Hakkaisan Maru
PB Ikunta Maru
PB Kaikei Maru
PB Kaiun Maru
PB Keijo Maru
PB Nagata Maru
PB Santos Maru
xAKL Toyotsu Maru
AMC Kinryu Maru
xAK Aratama Maru
AMC Kongo Maru
xAK Tenyo Maru
xAK Kamikaze Maru
xAKL Katsura Maru
xAKL Katsuragisan Maru
xAKL Kaijo Maru #2
xAKL Kaito Maru
xAKL Tateyama Maru
xAKL Tenposan Maru
xAKL Amakasu Maru
PB Kosin Maru #3


Allied Ships
DD Patterson, on fire, heavy damage

2eme exemple:


4 navires équivalents à des destroyers (DD, TB et 2E) sont intégrés à une escorte.
4 vedettes lance torpilles sont coulées contre un cargo touché.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Merak at 48,97, Range 16,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Akikaze
TB Hato
xAK Canberra Maru
xAK Kirishima Maru
xAK Toa Maru
xAK Hitati Maru
xAK Kosin Maru
xAK Kirikawa Maru
xAK Rakuto Maru
xAK Akagisan Maru
xAK Hamburg Maru
xAK Wakatu Maru
xAKL Indus Maru
xAKL Kokuyo Maru
xAKL Kinkasan Maru
xAKL Kuwayama Maru
xAKL Nagano Maru
xAKL Shoan Maru
xAKL Heimei Maru, heavy damage
xAKL Muko Maru
xAKL Shoyu Maru
xAKL Nichiro Maru
xAKL Kizugawa Maru
xAKL Honan Maru
xAKL Hinode Maru
xAKL Dori Maru
xAKL Mayachi Maru
xAKL Eiwa Maru
xAKL Sakae Maru
PB Choko Maru #5
PB Yokae Maru
E Uruyame
E Tobui


Allied Ships
MTB 8, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
MTB 10, Shell hits 1
MTB 11, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
MTB 26, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
MTB 27, Shell hits 1, and is sunk

3eme exemple:

Un autre convoi moins bien protégé avec seulement des chasseurs de sous marins et des dragueurs de mines dotés d’un faible armement. Les dégâts sont déjà plus importants.

 
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 4,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DMS W-9
DMS W-10
DMS W-11
DMS W-12
DMS W-17
DMS W-18
PB Kyo Maru #12, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Kyo Maru #13
SC Ch 4, heavy damage
SC Ch 5
SC Ch 6
SC Ch 10
SC Ch 11
SC Ch 12
SC Ch 16
SC Ch 17
SC Ch 18
xAK Brisbane Maru
xAK Hawaii Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Sanko Maru
xAK Takao Maru
xAK Shinko Maru

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
 
 
2eme round de la meme bataille avec d’autres vedettes lance torpilles.

Les résultats de la 2eme attaque sont sévères car les escorteurs ont épuisé leurs munitions au premier round. A remarquer que les PT attaquent d’abord les escorteurs, ce qui est logique, car ceux ci font écran et s’interposent pour protéger les transports.
Sans escorteur, entre les 2 rounds, c’étaient au moins de 7 ou 8 transports endommagés ou coulés au lieu de 3 dans ces 2 séquences.

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships

DMS W-9
DMS W-10
DMS W-11
DMS W-12
DMS W-17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DMS W-18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
PB Kyo Maru #12, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Kyo Maru #13
SC Ch 4, and is sunk
SC Ch 5
SC Ch 6
SC Ch 10
SC Ch 11
SC Ch 12
SC Ch 16
SC Ch 17
SC Ch 18
xAK Brisbane Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
xAK Hawaii Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
xAK Sanko Maru
xAK Takao Maru
xAK Shinko Maru

Allied Ships
PT-34
PT-35
PT-41


Pour faire bénéficier un convoi de la protection d’une escadre de combat il faut indiquer à l’escadre de combat la direction et au convoi l’ordre de suivre l’escadre de combat. («follow»)
 

rominet
31/03/2010, 19h52
Je vais éditer le post sur l'AAR de Greg/Dirty et je reporte les rapports de combat ici

Pour illustration, je suis aller piquer des rapports de combat de l'AAR "Hunting the Hibiki: Q-Ball (Allies) v Cuttlefish (Japan) " sur Matrix:


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Night Time Surface Combat, near Samah at 69,63, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
APD Hagi, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
TB Hayabusa, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Atago Maru, Shell hits 5
xAK Meiyo Maru, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Santos Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAK Zyuyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Hidaka Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
xAKL Raizan Maru, Shell hits 3, heavy fires

Allied Ships
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

Japanese ground losses:
597 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)



Reduced sighting due to 67% moonlight...
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 67% moonlight: 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards......
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 9,000 yards...
Japanese ships attempt to get underway...
Range closes to 6,000 yards......
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 6,000 yards...
TB Hayabusa engages DD Thracian at 6,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages APD Hagi at 6,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Zyuyo Maru at 6,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 6,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAKL Raizan Maru at 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
TB Hayabusa engages DD Thracian at 4,000 yards...
DD Thanet engages TB Hayabusa at 4,000 yards...
TB Hayabusa sunk by DD Scout at 4,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 4,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Atago Maru at 4,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAKL Raizan Maru at 4,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAKL Hidaka Maru at 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
xAK Zyuyo Maru sunk by DD Thanet at 2,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages APD Hagi at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Santos Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Atago Maru at 2,000 yards...
Range increases to 3,000 yards...
APD Hagi sunk by DD Thracian at 3,000 yards...
DD Thanet engages xAK Santos Maru at 3,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Atago Maru at 3,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAKL Raizan Maru at 3,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAKL Hidaka Maru at 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Atago Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Thanet engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Thracian engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
DD Scout engages xAK Meiyo Maru at 2,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape...
Task forces break off......


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Night Time Surface Combat, near Samah at 69,63, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Atago Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Santos Maru, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Hidaka Maru, heavy fires
xAKL Raizan Maru, heavy fires

Allied Ships
DD Scout
DD Thanet
DD Thracian

Japanese ground losses:
441 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (0 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Night Time Surface Combat, near Miri at 65,86, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Kaiko Maru, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
xAK Eihuku Maru, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
xAK Hakonesan Maru, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
xAK Hakubasan Maru, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Nako Maru #2, Shell hits 3, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD John D. Ford
DD Peary
DD Pillsbury
DD Pope

Japanese ground losses:
795 casualties reported
Squads: 38 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)


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Day Time Surface Combat, near Miri at 64,86, Range 28,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
APD Aoi, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
TB Kasasagi, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
AMc Wa 19, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Hokko Maru, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
xAK Zinzan Maru, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
xAK Kinkasan Maru, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Giyu Maru, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
xAKL Kembu Maru, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Kiko Maru, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Houston
CL Marblehead, on fire
CL Boise
DD Bulmer
DD Paul Jones
DD Parrott
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Night Time Surface Combat, near San Fernando at 80,74, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
AMC Asaka Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
xAK Azuma Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Katuragi Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Arimasan Maru
xAP Dairen Maru, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Hoten Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAP Tsingtao Maru, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Taizan Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Shanghai Maru
xAP Ukishima Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Aso Maru #7, Shell hits 11, on fire
PB Yamahagi Maru #3, Shell hits 3

Allied Ships
PT-31, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT-32
PT-33
PT-34
PT-35
PT-41
PT Q-111
PT Q-112
PT Q-113

Apparently, there were surface combat TFs in that hex, and CF had them following the proper way. They just got to the transports first. Even though it's my victory, I am not sure I like this result; that's alot of blood for transports that are supposed to be protected. That's also 13 out of 18 on torp hits. A little high? I can understand CF's frustration on this one.

The following night, at Jolo; this one, there was no surface combat TF protecting the transports, so this is on CF. They got crushed by the Dutch:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PB Saiko Maru, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
CM Yaeyama, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
xAK Kyusyu Maru, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
xAK Tenryu Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Taifuku Maru, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Nanrei Maru, Shell hits 13, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Java, Shell hits 1
CL De Ruyter
CL Tromp
DD Banckert
DD Van Nes
DD Witte de With
DD Evertsen
DD Kortenaer
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C'est un peu meurtrier mais ... et on remarquera que l'attaque des PT boats a lieu sur les cargos alors que d'après les joueurs, il y a de l'escorte dans le même hex (apparemment, il faut intégrer l'escorte dans la TF de transport elle-même).

Ces résultats sont à comparer à la seule bataille du même genre que je connaisse: celle de Balikpapan le 24 janvier 42 où 3 DD US surprennent en pleine nuit 12 transports japonais.
Le bilan est de 3 transports coulés plus un escorteur.
Ce qui ressemblerait au 1er rapport de combat.
Donc pourquoi pas?

Mon idée est de mettre une valeur non nulle au "deck armor" ce qui permettra aux cargos de mieux résister aux attaques à la bombe et peut être aussi de s'en sortir un tout petit peu mieux lors d'engagements du type ci dessus. A tester.http://www.campaigns-france.org/images/smilies/smil41800a8ba959c.gif